Rethinking Education: Why More Drills Won’t Help—And What Will! | Ep. 65

Episode 65 Falling for Learning Podcast

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Episode 65 of Falling for Learning Podcast features Dr. Deonna Smith, a veteran educator and author. Dr. Smith discusses the importance of fostering joy in learning. She emphasizes the value of inquiry-based education, as experienced in her Montessori schooling. Dr. Smith highlights the need for culturally responsive practices, especially for underrepresented students, and advocates for developmentally appropriate preparation. She warns against over-reliance on technology and suggests inquiry-based activities like baking or watching movies to enhance learning. Dr. Smith also promotes exposure to diverse cultures and offers resources like her book Rooted in Joy and free strategies for incorporating joy in education.

Connect with Dr. Smith: 

Get her freebie - https://purple-tiger-24284.myflodesk.com/mia362nox1

Instagram @Deonnasmith

LinkedIn - Deonna Smith

YouTube -  That's Just Good Teaching 

Get the book Rooted in Joy - https://a.co/d/aeFSMBU

#RethinkEducation #FallingForLearning #JoyInEducation #EffectiveLearning #EngageKids

Transcript

TD Flenaugh: 0:00

Today, we're so excited to have Dr. Deonna Smith. She is a veteran educator and author of Rooted in Joy. So she is a former administrator and now is an education consultant and author who really specializes in helping children find their joy, right? She helps and supports educators in helping with that. She's on our podcast because we know a lot of parents are trying to do the same thing make sure that their children have a joy of learning, and so you don't want to miss this episode, because she's going to give us some insight and resources to make sure that we can make that happen. We have this podcast to help parents and caregivers with having the resources, strategies and tools needed to make sure that their children are on track for learning and to stay on track

for success. So here she is: 0:49

Dr. Deonna Smith.

Dr. Deonna Smith: 0:56

hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing wonderfully. How are you doing?

TD Flenaugh: 1:01

Great, you know, starting off the school year. So what we really like to talk to our guest about is, what is something that really made you fall in love with learning? Because we're going to talk about the joy of learning. So what was it for you as a youngster?

Dr. Deonna Smith: 1:20

Oh, wow. I love that question. So I would say I really fell in love with learning because of the type of school that I went to. I actually went to a Montessori school. And so my teachers were, you know, trained in the Montessori method, which, if you're not familiar with Montessori, it's very inquiry led. It's a lot of practice and letting kids do things at their own pace. And I had a great experience that was elementary school. I did K through six in that environment. And so I had a great experience learning and just kind of what I thought was like playing all day, learning. So I think I've always had that love. My mom is in another life or so she would have been a social studies teacher. My mom is a big reader and a big teacher, so I always love learning from her. So I was fortunate enough to have some really great foundational skills set up that helped me love learning. But interestingly enough, once I left the Montessori setting, I was not, you know, the best student. I did struggle in a lot of subjects because I was just used to such an engaging, inquiry based environment. So going to the traditional school setting was a little bit challenging for me, but I had that great foundation. I

TD Flenaugh: 2:40

Great, that's so amazing to know. And so can you tell us about some things that you did in your own education that helped to really bring to the forefront the need to bring joy into education and help help other educators spark joy for children when it comes to learning,

Dr. Deonna Smith: 3:04

yeah, as a student or as a teacher and school leader

TD Flenaugh: 3:09

of the above.

Dr. Deonna Smith: 3:13

Well, like I mentioned, as a student, I had a very inquiry based joyful education experience. I did not have teachers that were super culturally responsive. I was the only person of color at my school, so I had a lot of challenges with that, and I would say that's probably what kind of set me on my journey to be an educator, is wanting to be that representation for girls that I just didn't have. So I did have a lot of really interesting and engaging school teachers growing up, and then I would say, what I realized the most as a teacher and even just as a student, is I firsthand experience the shift that happened so much with our kids, where they go from being like excited and excitable and enthusiastic to by middle school. They hate school, you know, they don't want to be there. They don't like anything. And I think some of that is, of course, just growing up in hormones. But I was really struck because I had the ability to teach kinder and middle school, so I see kind of both sides of what kids can look like, and just seeing how different kindergarten kids are the middle school kids, and their enthusiasm and their love for learning and made me really start to think about, okay, what can we do as the adults to maintain that joy and goal? Because kids naturally have that. They're naturally so excitable and curious, and it's just up to us to make sure that we don't snuff out that spark so true.

TD Flenaugh: 4:45

So you're saying as a child, or, you know, when you're going through your K through 12 experience, sometimes you were the only, or you were saying as an educator, you're the only educator that was black. Yeah, I

Dr. Deonna Smith: 4:58

mean, I guess a little bit bold, but mostly. When I was a kid. I'm from Washington state, so I'm not from a very diverse area. I live in California now, but yeah, I was the only person of color for a long time. I mean, pretty much my whole elementary school experience. And so it was very challenging in that respect. And then as a teacher, I've been fortunate enough to be in more diverse spaces, but still across the board, I think, you know, when you get to work with the older kids, or, you know, even kids that are past, it seems like almost just pre K is where you're allowed to play and have fun, but, you know, they want to get down to business so fast. It's like, when you work with Kindergarteners, they're already like, Okay, it's time to, you know, standardize tests and get in line. And so I think I saw a lot of that, and thought that's probably not the best way for us to maintain the spark and the joy for for our kids.

TD Flenaugh: 5:52

Yeah, I definitely couldn't relate. I grew up in Alaska, so I know that the diversity was there wasn't that much, right? So that also actually put you, kind of puts that on your radar. And then, as an educator, you saw the need for it as well. So what are some things that you do to help spark the joy for students? And then, what are those culturally relevant types of activities or practices that you have that would help nurture children? Yeah,

Dr. Deonna Smith: 6:30

that's a great question. I would say one mindset that I like to highlight when I'm working with both caregivers and instructors or teachers is just kind of letting go of this always focused on preparing mindset. And what I mean by that is, I meet a lot of like, you know, people who are worried about preparation. Like, I want to make sure that they're ready for third grade. I want to make sure that they're ready for middle school, ready for high school, ready for college, ready for the adult world, and I think that that is a very important and noble goal, to want our kids to be prepared to meet the challenges of our world. What I also know is true is that preparedness still has to be developmentally appropriate. And there's a great thought leader, sir Kenneth Robinson. He always jokes about how, like, college does not begin in kindergarten, even though, I think we sometimes get, we get to thinking about that like, oh, we have to, you know, get ready. And if they don't learn how to do this, now, they'll never do it, but we still have to be developmentally appropriate. And so I would say for anyone listening who's thinking about bringing that joy in, it would start with recognizing that we want to prepare our kids, but we also don't want to lose the childlike joy and wonder and everything that comes along with each developmental stage. And so you want to prepare, but in a development way. That doesn't mean that your kindergartner has to get ready for having homework in college. You know that doesn't mean that you know your third grader needs to be prepared for the SATs like it's not that's not the best way to prepare our kids. So I would say that is just a really important mindset shift that I hope to see more folks making. And I think that goes more responsiveness too, because sometimes we think to be culturally responsive. You know, we kind of get really stuck on these buzzwords like rigor and all of these other words that we throw around a lot in gap closing kind of rhetoric. And I think that that is true, that there are clearly discrepancies between our black and brown students and their white counterparts, as far as their, you know, academic growth, and that's important to address. But that doesn't mean that we need to make school something that we take all of the joy and inquiry and just kind of turn it into this sit and get kill and drill remote or, you know, rote memorization setting. So I would say that's something that I would really encourage people to be mindful of.

TD Flenaugh: 8:55

So I want to highlight something that you were saying about the really drilling kill. So what are some of those practices that you see that parents might be doing teachers might be doing that is really squashing the love for learning for kids?

Dr. Deonna Smith: 9:13

Yeah, I think one thing that I see a lot of is more is more, which means that if a student is struggling with a concept or a skill, I mean, let's just say I don't know. It's it's division of fractions with unlike denominators. Okay, there is definitely something to be said for at bats, especially in math. Kids need lots of opportunities to fail forward and get feedback, but I think that feedback piece is what we miss a lot. So giving a student just more and more problems, or having them spend more and more time on i Ready, or having them, you know, just do longer hours, is not necessarily going to always translate to them understanding the skill and so if. If I don't really deeply, have a deep understanding of division of fractions with unlike denominators, 3040, 50 problems, is not going to change it if I'm not getting a reteach, if I'm not getting it to explain to me or broken down in a different way, if I'm not getting other examples. And so sometimes what I see families do is the teacher will be like, Oh, well, they're really struggling with x, y and z, and then the family thinks, Okay, great, I'm going to help, and I'm going to send them to a tutoring service. I don't want to call anybody out, you know, because I don't think they're all bad, but, you know, send them to, like, one of those after school tutoring services, or put them on this program. And sometimes that might work if it's an exposure issue and a practice issue, but sometimes it might not. And I kids don't get feedback and learn about like, what mistakes they're making, and get more investment. It ends up to them being really burnt out, frustrated by it. So I tend to advise families against like, well, if you're not getting this grade, we're gonna do three hours of Khan Academy every Saturday. Yes, because I just that doesn't always translate. And then I think sometimes I might have a little bit of a controversial opinion on this, but I think our kids are very over technology, and so sometimes too, I think we want to have, like learn all these different learning programs, but be mindful, if you're at home or vice versa, your student is probably already having, I mean, I've seen teachers that do up to two hours of a learning program during the school day, so always. So I would say, instead of doing that, if you're really worried about your student, can do something that is inquiry based if your kids having problems with fractions, bake something and double the recipe instead of just doing, you know, kill and drill. And if your kid is having problems with like analogies, watch a movie, read the same book together, and then talk about the similarities and differences over the cookies that you baked using the fractions right? Think about different ways, because for a lot of our kids, it almost comes down to a morale issue, and so that for you can be a great agent of change as a as a parent, because you can get that morale going, get them excited again, get them feeling good about learning again. And that is, to me, where I see more breakthroughs than just doing more is more. Yeah,

TD Flenaugh: 12:20

yeah. I really want to highlight that, because sometimes we don't know what we don't know, and I know that the kid doesn't have the concept, so they may actually need to take a step back in a prerequisite skill. And sometimes they're just like, Okay, we're going to do more of the same. And again, we have to figure out what the problem is. Is it that they don't have the concept or they haven't practiced it enough? They haven't practiced it enough? You can give them more practice. But like you said, it doesn't have to be 50 problems of practice. It could. And it doesn't have to be like to sit down paper, pencil, either or on the computer, which we have a lot of computer programs, which also kids get really burned out with technology, for sure. So those are really important things that we need to think about when we're thinking about keeping that love of learning going, of course, for the falling for learning podcast, and it's all about, you know, helping kids fall in love with learning. So I know that when I was growing up, sometimes the tendency was, you know, be really serious and really authoritative about, you know, sit down and get that learning, you know. And of course, has an opposite effect, where you really hate it. It's a punishment, and we want to think about ways that we can bring joy and love into it. Can you tell us a little bit more about, like, the culturally responsive practices that we could do, even as parents, you know, when we're working with our kids at home? Yes? So yeah, let us know about that.

Dr. Deonna Smith: 14:02

I would love to, I think one thing that, and I've been talking about this a lot lately, because it's been on my mind, is just exposure, exposing your kids to other cultures, so that they have a very rich frame of reference when it comes to understanding and interacting with people that are different from themselves. You go on social media, there's a huge thing about like, you know, people don't have empathy. We're afraid of difference. A lot of all the isms and the phobias, right? Yeah, I think that a lot of that families can head that off just by exposing your kids to things early. So for example, with my step kids here, I know that they do stuff at school for the culture months, but we also do something at home for the culture months. I have a recipe book we make like a traditional food together. They have to do like an informative essay. So it's Hispanic heritage, for example. So they'll be doing a little project where they'll be reading like nonfiction. They'll probably watch. Much, you know, a movie, whether it's like Encanto or coco or something like that, right? We'll probably make some food and then go somewhere in the community. This is a huge thing, yeah, Saturday, go to a street festival for whatever culture it is, or, if you're, you know, go to a little, you know, Chinatown, if you have one in your city, go get some food out like have kids experience different things, different cultures, yeah, and learning and and seeing you, because kids, they're going to do what you do more than what you say. So you have an appreciation, and the love of other cultures and different things is so powerful. So there's so many things that you can do as a caregiver at at home. And then for our teachers, of course, it's exactly the same thing. And I think for a lot of teachers, it feels like just another thing to do, kind of okay, we're gonna check off like, you know, okay, we did our read aloud. Now, moving on. But what I encourage for teachers to do is make these celebrations that are what I call more than a month, and thinking about like, subject by subject, by subject, if you're a multiple subject teacher, or like class by class, for your single subject teacher, how you can really, like, dig into the deep work. So we're not just learning about, you know, like, you know, Mexican American culture. We're learning about Cesar Chavez and Dolores, Dolores Huerta. We're learning about, like, indigenous farming practices from Olivia and science we're learning about, you know, mathematicians or scientists or astronauts that are Latino or Latina, you know, just figuring out different ways to incorporate it into every subject, and really letting it be a labor of love and bringing that joy into it. I mean, I want to see the living museums, you know, the projects like make it fun, all of those great things. And so that's why I think it goes really well with my other message, just about like, inquiry and joy and learning, because that's a great opportunity. And kids love that stuff, whether they're that culture or not. They love that. It's exciting to learn something new about a different culture, so just have fun with it.

TD Flenaugh: 17:03

So many great tips. Okay, we're gonna pause for a little secret. All over the United States, 75% of children don't know how to write. Well, add that to the fact that so many people out there are trying to silence the voices of those who have been oppressed and trying to prevent them from telling their story. Who's going to tell your story if your child doesn't know how to write? Well, I have two books to address this issue, the rewrite method and the rewrite method workbook pretend to make sure that parents know what to do, that educators know what to do to get their children to write better and just not write better, but love to write. Make sure that your next generation could tell their story and they won't be silenced. Go to fallingfor learning.com. Today to purchase your set. We're here with Dr Deanna Smith. We are digging into ways to bring joy to learning and how to have culturally responsive practices. So one thing that you keep bringing up, which we want to get into more depth about, is the inquiry. How can we promote inquiry like, what does that mean for people who may not know, and what are some things that we could do with our children to help them, you know, on this journey of inquiry, yeah,

Dr. Deonna Smith: 18:30

such a great question. I think that when I think of inquiry led education, I think about educational experiences that start with the learner, instead of starting with the the teacher or the person who was the knower, right? So I think for a lot of us, if we think about how we experience schooling, you probably came in and sat down and you were like, Okay, I'm ready. Like, fill up my brain. Tell me everything I need to know, right? And I think that even you know, I don't think that that's ever been a best practice. But even now, with what we know about neuroscience, how the brain works and our kids attention spans, it's less and less effective to teach really. That starts with explaining a subject with what you what you the explainer knows about the subject. So when I think about inquiry led, it's letting kids talk first. It's asking them what their ideas are. It's activating the schema or the existing frames of references that they already have about a subject. It's letting their interests kind of lead the way. So having multiple options to get to the same place, taking different paths. Maybe the path that your your student wants to take is a research path. Maybe it's more of a project path. Maybe it's they want to read about it and then talk about it and process and read about it some more. So it really just starts with the learners interest and. Learners disposition and in the learners kind of preferred way of engaging with the work in mind, instead of a one size fits all, like sit and get listening approach to learning

TD Flenaugh: 20:15

that's so important. I mean, that's you know, I hope people listening are you know, finding, you know, real, real value in what you're saying, and please, Like and Subscribe. But also, I mean, yeah, that's something that I think a lot of us as you know, we have homeschooling parents, and we have parents who just are really supporting their kids from the schooling that they're getting, but thinking about inquiry as just multiple ways of engaging with the topic and learning more, rather than me as a teacher or a parent, just telling you, well, let me tell you about whatever that is, right? Instead, you're reading about it, you're going to experience you know something about it, interact with that actual content or whatever the that those objects or artifacts or whatever it is. So you know, you know, taking it outside of the classroom or beyond the classroom is another way of thinking about it, and really finding the information yourself, besides someone just giving it to you, yes,

Dr. Deonna Smith: 21:25

yeah. And I think a lot of it is about questioning, too. So you know, especially if you are able to have a one on one conversation, ask, What do you think about that does? What does that remind you of? Like, Okay, have you seen or experienced anything similar. Or like, have you seen a movie or a TV show where that's happened? Or like, can you think of a character that's also experienced that? Or when you think about that, what else comes to mind? Or tell me more about that. Or, okay, well, before I tell you what I think, what do you think? Like, let's talk about it together, questioning letting you know, getting kids to talk like getting them more involved in the in the discourse is so important for inquiry based education.

TD Flenaugh: 22:05

So another element of inquiry is making sure that we're open yet for kids to ask questions, rather than us coming up with the topics and just telling them about the topic, having them ask questions about a topic and then having them find out information about it after they have explored their curiosity or their ideas. And of course, if you're able to explore that is something that makes you more interested in, something more joyful about something more proud of what you found out about something rather than I'm the one who told you know as the keeper of the knowledge. So,

Dr. Deonna Smith: 22:43

yes, absolutely.

TD Flenaugh: 22:45

So you've given us so many tips and information. Where can we get some strategies or resources for this? Do you have, like a book or something?

Dr. Deonna Smith: 22:56

Yes, I was hoping you would ask. I do. So I'm so passionate about this work, I wrote a book all about it. It's called rooted in joy, and it's all about really approaching education from a lens that is rooted in joy, equity, care. It's just a different way of engaging, I think, with like school and schooling and our students, because I also feel very strongly that there is, you know, an element of of care and just humanizing our little people that we're around that definitely needs to shine through more in education. So you can pick it up at Barnes and Noble. You can pick it up at Amazon. It's also available at Target, which is pretty cool. And then if you'd like to support a black owned bookstore, it's at mahogany books, and they ship nationwide. So hold it

TD Flenaugh: 23:48

up a little bit higher, because I think we just have part of it. Yes. Hold it up nice and enjoy. Yes. And I do have my copy, and I've read it, and definitely lots of strategies and lots of, you know, really treasured, kind of valuable activities that you could use, you know, tomorrow, so that you can make sure that you are incorporating culturally relevant and joyful practices for students, because that's really the key, right? If we could make them sit down and do it, but eventually, when they get older, whatever, they're going to resist it. But if we could figure out how to get them to love it, make them feel good about it and joyful about it, then we'll have lifelong learners, right, exactly.

Dr. Deonna Smith: 24:35

And I would also love to connect with you on Instagram, so if you follow me, it's just at Diana Smith, and that's also my website, just Deana Smith consulting com. So if you'd like to see more, a little bit about the work that I do, I'd love to connect with you there. And I have lots of freebies as well. So hopefully I'll be able to maybe put something in the show notes. Yes, for sure, tell

TD Flenaugh: 24:58

us what freebies you have. And. We'll put them in the show notes. Yes,

Dr. Deonna Smith: 25:02

I want for just like, think it's like 30 strategies to incorporate joy. So I'll include that one because they're little easy things that you can do.

TD Flenaugh: 25:11

We love that. Okay? So I also know, because I follow you on social media, but you have different presentations, or, like, book signings. Or what events do you have coming up that maybe we could, you know, come to or visit? Yeah,

Dr. Deonna Smith: 25:28

I'd love to see you all at one of my events or workshops. I do workshops pretty regularly, virtually, I just wrapped up my back to school workshop. You can still get the recording, actually, but I do that pretty, pretty frequently, just because I love connecting with people. And then I do offer workshops directly with schools and districts who want to do this work, and I do some teacher coaching as well. So if that's something that you're interested in, definitely make sure you check out my website, or just send me a DM on Instagram. And coming up here pretty soon, I will be at a couple of conferences. I'll be at the American School Health Association Conference in Vegas in October. So if you're there, come say hi, and then I'll be at a couple other conferences. Actually, it's a big year for me in Vegas, for some reason. So I'll be at some principal conferences there as well. So if you see me and you have your copyrighted to joy, please be sure to come and say hello. But if you would like to learn more about this work, or you think it could benefit, you know your school or your teachers, definitely reach out to me and we'll, we'll get it sorted out

TD Flenaugh: 26:36

Absolutely. So that's wonderful. So we are so glad to have you with us again that you've taken the time to join our podcast and give some real insight to parents that are really trying to get their children to fall in love with learning to get them on track for learning to make sure that they are on track for success in the Future. What are some of like, you know, final takeaways, like, if people don't know, like, where to begin, as far as they they have a tool that's really have fallen out of levels of learning, and they don't quite know what to do to get them back on like, what are some first steps that they can do? Yeah,

Dr. Deonna Smith: 27:19

that's a great question. I think that, you know, it's really important to meet kids where they're at, and so, for example, I'll give you one example. I'm always struck by kids ability to research and have initiative when they're interested that, you know, like plays video games or has a new hobby or really something they, man, it's like Scooby Doo ready to solve a mystery. They will research. They will pull all the sources, like they know how to figure things out. And so if you have to start with something that doesn't feel as academic, especially as a parent, I think that that's fine, if that is your gateway, then just highlighting, like, Oh, do you see how that's a transferable skill? Like, Oh, you mean, you kind of looked online, and then you went on YouTube and you watched a video, and they explained it, and you took notes. Do you see why that's kind of like what we're talking about over here, right? So don't be afraid to meet them where they're at and start with what they're interested in. Knowing that again, those are transferable. So don't overwhelm yourself trying to get you know your student to read a 300 page book. Maybe it starts with a book with more illustrations in it, and that's kind of the stepping stone. So just take those baby steps to re engage our students, and they'll get addicted to that feeling. They'll get addicted to the feeling of learning, of inquiry, and it'll start to sort itself out. Wonderful

TD Flenaugh: 28:44

so giving them like a choice of what they're going to research, even though it's not, you know, the big academic topic, but it just is the process of finding out about, you know, how to play a game or how to get tickets to that concert that they really want, right, right?

Dr. Deonna Smith: 29:04

Like I said, they're so creative when the time is right. So just tap into that

TD Flenaugh: 29:10

Absolutely. So thanks again for joining us. We have all of her information in the show notes so you could connect with Dr. Deonna Smith. And again, you know, reach out to her. She has so many strategies, resources that you can access. The freebies are in are linked into our show notes, right? Have a great day and make sure that you do something. Make sure that you do something that your future adult kids will thank you for! Thanks again for supporting the Falling for Learning Podcast. New episodes go live every Saturday at 5pm you can watch us on youtube.com at falling for learning or listen on all major podcast platforms such as. Apple, Google, Audible, Spotify and much more for more resources, visit, fallinginlovewithlearning.com.